Intro to INC
INC are the FALSE TEACHERS
(winsurfer) INC, how sure are you that Felix Manalo is not one of the FALSE TEACHERS that the Bible itself so strongly warns us. Whoever DOES NOT believe that Jesus CAME as a human being is from the Evil One. INC, JW, Mormons, Muslims, etc. do not believe that Jesus came as a human being. They all believe that Jesus is and was ONLY a human being. But what was Jesus before He CAME as a human being? Certainly NOT MAN! So your Felix Manalo is one of those FALSE TEACHERS!
(sir) Winsurfer please enlighten the board in what Jesus "was" before he came as a human. I would like to see your response. Just like the commercial, "Got Milk?", im asking,"Got verse?". So please, share with us.
(bible student) How can the INC NOT believe that Jesus came as a human being when we teach that He WAS a human being? How can a human being NOT come as a human being? Your logic is illogical.
(winsurfer) Read Philippians 2:5-8 below:
Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus Christ was in the form of God, yet he took it upon Himself to become a human being. It is as clear as day my INC friends. It is not human being coming as a human being. It is God coming as a human being. If this is too hard for you to accept, let me rephrase. It is someone who is in the form of God coming as a human being.
Therefore, the warning in the Bible in 1 John 4:1-3 is really for the likes of Felix Manalo.
Definitely they (the False Teachers) are here in form of Iglesia Ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, etc., etc.,
I repeat: Jesus was not a man coming as a man. He was in the form of God coming as a man.
(romans 16:16) Can you please tell me the meaning of the Form of God. Let me remind you that Form of God is synonimous to Image of God. What is refered to as the Form of God in what you have quoted. Let me also remind you that God does not have a form. Also tell me if God did not violate His immutability. You said He was in the form of spirit and then became a man(flesh and bones). Wasn't that a contradiction? Dual nature? Finally, what is the nature of Christ right now, while He is sitting at the right hand of God? And what would be His Nature when He surrenders Himself to God? Once you answered all of this I will respond to your wrong interpretation of the said verse you are quoting. Peace to you all!!!
(jasbir) In Philippians 2:5-8:
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
If you read the verses carefully and prayerfully and not just rely on your ministers, you will know what form of God means. Jesus was in the form of God means He was God. Why? First He was equal with God. OK? Then He did not count equality with God a thing to grasped. You know what that means? He could have said No to the Father but He didn't. Why? Because he humbled Himself.
Next He took the form of a servant. You know what form of servant means? Yes, you are correct. It means a servant. He was born in the likeness of men. Then, being found in human form...
Now Romans, what do you mean by human form? Is that real human or form only? Think now. Don't let your minister think for you.
If you don't believe that form of God means God, then why believe that form of man means man? You do believe that Jesus is man, right? Or you believe that He is just in the form of man? Which is which?
So now you believe that the Bible contradicts itself. For us who worship Jesus Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, the Bible gives full glory to HIM. Yes, God is immutable. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is unchangeable that's why we can rely on him fully. If He promised something, He will do it. He does not change. Do you believe that? His compassion will not change. His justice will not change. His plan will not change. Why? Because does not change. Everything goes according to His plan. You believe that?
Jesus Christ did not cease to be God. We can see in the above verses: He was God; He was equal with God; He humbled Himself; He became man. And now He sits at the right hand of God. Mindboggling and unacceptable to you? Right, because you don't believe the Bible. You believe Manalo and his cohorts.
Jesus Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, is a true God and a true man. You can post all the verses that show he is a man. I have no objection because the Bible says so. Now you cry "Can not be!" when the Bible says Christ is God. That means you don't believe the Word of God. You believe the word of Manalo and his ministers.
Go ahead so that INC lies will be more exposed.
Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth.
(romans 16:16) Your response speaks volume of your pride and arrogance. Your post states hatred and remorse to the Church, Bro. Manalo and the Ministers. Your boastful remarks shows as if you know everything. Please read your post again and see if Christian characteristic is present. I know you are an intelligent person but please don't make your wisdom fail you in your rebuttals. May we learn to have the mind of Christ which is humble and obedient till death.
Form of God does not necessarily mean God in nature. Just like IMAGE OF GOD does not mean God in Nature.
Man was created in the Image of God, does this mean man is God?... I asked you what Form of god mean, when it talks about Christ. Did it mean He was in the form of Spirit(give biblical verses if He is)? Because the answer to this will lead us to knowing if Immutability of God in Nature was violated? According to your post, the nature of Christ right now and forever is 100% God and 100% Man, am I right? If this is the case, the nature of your God in the past change to what the nature of your God at present. Violation of Immutability?(stick to the nature of God).
I never doubted the veracity of the Bible. What I consider contradictory are your interpretations of the words of God in the Bible. Your interpretations are not in harmony with the other teachings of God in the Bible. Careful examination makes them false and twisted.
You said Christ did not cease to be God but the Bible says othewise. Christ never proclaimed He is God but rather He has a God which the True God will never declare. If what He(100% Man) did was to humble Himself to God(which one, the Father or Holy spirit?
How many Gods do you have again?) but still 100% God, why did God need to Give Him Name above all names and exalt Him still? What happened to the Jesus God who did not cease to be God? Mystery and contradiction? May God open your eyes to see the Truth!!!
I hope you can give me a clearer response. After your response, don't worry I will give my rebuttal. I will try eventhough you already assumed that my answer is false. Peace to you all!!!
(jasbir) Thank you very much, Romans 16:16.
I apologize if I show arrogance in my response. I know truth hurts but I don’t intend to hurt anybody’s feelings, as much as INC members’. I don’t hate INC members. For me to hate them is to hate my friends and loved ones as well, which I can not do. I just hate the lies your messenger and ministers taught you.
I don’t know where you got the information. What verse did you get that? Yes, it’s true that man was created in the image of God but before man was created, he was not in the form of God nor equal with God.
Apostle Paul would not waste words. He gave us the nature of Christ before He became man. If “form of God” as you said does not mean God, what does “form of man” or “human form” means? You don’t believe Jesus Christ is man in nature?
God did not violate His immutability. Everything goes according to His plan. He does not change. I know you do not believe that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the Creator of heaven and earth, that’s why you can’t stand calling Him “My Lord and my God.”
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change. He is a merciful, just, compassionate. When He says or promises something, He will do it without fail. Do you think God will change his love for His people? No. He is immutable and sovereign. He does not take advice from humans.
Have I interpreted anything? I read the verses as they are. You are the one trying to interpret everything. You tried to interpret the “form of God”, I did not. The meaning is clear: Jesus Christ was equal with God! You cannot escape the truth, Romans 16:16. So read it as it is. Don’t twist them like your messenger and his cohorts do.
If our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the Creator of heaven and earth, then there’s no doubt that the Bible is true. He is God! That is the truth you can’t accept. There’s no contradiction, my friend. The contradiction is in you because you don’t believe the Bible. You believe your messenger and his ministers. They lied to you and you are paying them to continue lying. Do you have any interpretation?
I expect a reply.
Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Author of life, Creator of heaven and earth.
(romans 16:15) The Truth you believe in is not the Truth at all and I will let the readers decide to that.
You say, Form of God literally means God. Can you tell me then the meaning of Image of God if it literally means God's Image? The Bible is a puzzle just like what another brother said. You have to compare spiritual things with spiritual. Just like when the apostles said, "Ye are the body of Christ and members in particular". You cannot assume that the meaning of the body of Christ is literal. You have to use the whole Bible to find the spiritual meaning of it. On the other hand, there are words that only God knows what it means or why He said it like that. Like the 'the blood of Abel is crying out' and other symbolical pronouncement. We have to remember that God's ways and thoughts are different from man's. If there are things that are hard to understand, God made it that way because that is His will and we should subject ourselve to that will.
In reference to the Nature of God, God is very clear about it. God will not confuse us about it. God had made this known in the past and will make it known forever. God is INVISIBLE, IMMORTAL, ETERNAL, ALMIGHTY, AND ALL THE QUALITIES ARE MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE. Man should not entertain the idea of changing this doctrine of God for twisting this will lead you to damnation.
Jesus our Mediator was blunt on His statements about His submission to His God. You can read this in the bible. As the unbelievers would say, "JESUS DID NOT CEASE IN BEING GOD" but according to the verses they are declaring that Christ is God debunks their statement. In verse 9-10, it shows that Christ was EXALTED AND GIVEN NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES BY GOD. As I was asking Jasbir and WinSurfer about this, they cannot make a Sound rebuttal. The 100% God Jesus they believe did not cease in being God will contradict verses 9-10 coz it shows that God gave Him those attributes inspite the fact that He is also 100%God.
I don't understand their interpretation of Christ humbled Himself. Did this mean, Christ has the power but preferred not to use His power? If this is the case, God needed not to Give Christ a Name above all names nor exalt HIm coz He already has the qualities of God as you were saying. These are the few contradiction you will create if you would make Christ as your God. Again, you will have two God's, the God who exalted Christ and the God Christ and Man who was exalted.
Don't you see the confusion here! God will not do this absurdity coz He is not the author of it. I m trying to find out if you can defend your faith if cross-examined. So far, you are not doing good coz your
belief is contrary to the Words of God.
(jasbir) Thanks, Romans for responding. How are you? Are you thankful for the blessings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth?
Let the Bible speak and I listen. Do you listen to the Word of God? Maybe you will say: “How can I listen, those are written words so I can’t hear them.” Will you say that?
Let us read the verses again, my friend. I like reading it again and again. It’s my Lord’s love letter. You believe that, Romans 16:16?
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Let’s say the “form of God” here does not mean God. Then Jesus Christ should not be equal with God. He didn’t have to humble himself because He was not God. Why did the Apostle Paul showed His humility as a good example? And if Jesus was not God, there's nothing to be emptied of himself because He was only human. You understand that, Romans? Think for yourself. Don’t let your ministers think for you.
If “form of God” does not mean God, then “human form” does not mean human. You believe that, Romans? I don’t think so because you believe that Jesus Christ is human. You see how your ministers try to fool you? Don’t let them, Romans, I beg you.
You asked me about the meaning of image of God. I only read “form of God” in the verses, can you see “image of God” written there? What book and verse did you get that? Give me please so I can read it. Thanks.
That’s what your ministers like to tell you: “Oh, the Bible is a puzzle so only us INC ministers can interpret it. You members just listen to us, don’t bother to read and understand.” And what happened. Look at yourself, you are just as confused as your minister. You can’t understand plain English when it comes to the Bible because you have no power to understand the words. You even forget figures of speech.
You are right. If the Bible is saying things we can’t understand, we still have to accept it or we end up shouting “CONTRADICTION!!!” just like your ministers. If that’s what God is being revealed to us, why not accept it?
Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth. Because of His humility and obedience to God the Father, Jesus emptied himself of His equality with God, but then the Father has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Father gave back the glory to his Son which the Son has before the creation.
I have nothing against the above. I have something to say below.
Did I tell you there is contradiction in the Bible? I did not. I believe what the Bible says. It is your ministers that are confused because they don’t believe the Bible. They don’t believe in Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth!!!!
I thought you believe that God’s ways are not our ways. You also believe that some verses are hard to understand. If you don’t understand then, you will not accept? Just like I stated before, If God has revealed something to us that way, why shout “CONTRADICTION!!!”? I can’t blame you. You are just echoing you minister’s confused argument.
One thing more, I don’t believe in two Gods. The Bible says THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE. You believe that, do you? Remember: ONE GOD, ONE SAVIOR, ONE KING OF KINGS, ONE LORD OF LORDS.
Confused? Don’t be. Read the Bible. We will be dealing with that later on. Just stick with me. OK?
Accept in your heart our Lord Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth.
(romans 16:16) NKJV version -(6) "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,(7) But made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (8) And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."
If you would read starting from verses 1-5 of chapter 2, the first Christians were being exhorted to have the lowliness of mind of Christ. Each should look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. That Christs became obedient to the point of death. The context of the verses does not prove Christ being God but rather has the lowliness of mind that though He was Foreordained before the foundation of world, prophesied, raised by God, made holy by God, given authority by God, given Name that should be served and worshipped, exalted by God, made Lord and Christ by God, He(Christ) did not consider it robbery to be equal with God coz all of these attributes were only given by His Father, The Only True God.
He took the Form of Bonservant and in the likeness of man He was manifested thus the prophesy of God concerning Him was fulfilled. Christ in the lowliness of His mind did not complain at all for that is the duty of man which is to serve and submit to God and He did this to the point of death. Christ was found in the appearance of man coz Christ was manifested in the flesh and He differentiated Himself to the True God who is Greater than Him. The True God whom everybody should recognize as the ONLY TRUE GOD - INVISIBLE, ETERNAL, ALMIGHTY, IMMUTABLE, AND MORE QUALITIES ONLY THE TRUE GOD CAN POSSESS.
Your Christ which is 100%God and 100% man seems like He needed to be exalted by God and be Given Name above all names. If He did not cease in being God, verses 9 and 10 would not have been preached to us. But the fact that Christ who is 100% God according to you did not declare that He is God rather He taught He is not Allknowing for the day of Judgement or the time when He will be sent by His God, He does not know(is this in reference of Christ God who did cease in His Nature as God?). Even after ALL THINGS ARE ALREADY SUBJECT TO CHRIST, CHRIST WILL SUBJECT HIMSELF TO GOD(do you think Christ is still equal with God?).
Your Jesus is not the True Christ preached by the Apostles. As Christ Himslef declared, He is a MAN TELLING THE TRUTH WHICH HE HEARD FROM GOD. Don't tell me, Christ was confusing us when He said this statement coz if He is also God, He should have said, He was only telling half the truth. Again, the God who told Him the Truth is different from the Jesus(man) who was told the Truth. Even when He was about to be resurrected, He confessed, " He will ascend to His God and Father which is also our(INC) God and Father, the ONLY TRUE GOD.
Again, though Christ was taught that He should be worshipped, It is God's instruction for He is glorified when His Servants are practicing it.......
How can you believe INC when Christ Himself you don't believed when He said There is only one True God, The Father. The Apostle Paul said the same thing, There is only One God and One Mediator between God and Man, the Man Jesus. Other authors of the Bible who were inspired by God preached the same thing about Christ.
Just when He was praying to His God, "Thy will be done not Mine". Truly, our Christ is the True Christ in the Bible. Praise and Glory to Father and God of our Lord Jesus!!! Peace to you all!!! I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry. If there are mistakes on my posts, I would like to be corrected by my True bro. and sis. in the faith.
(jasbir) I did not see any difference in the context. Read again please. I told you not to rely on your ministers. See now, you are becoming poor in understanding written English.
Would you not worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the Creator of heaven and earth? Would you not humble yourself and accept the truth in the Bible? Would you always question the Bible and accuse it of contradiction? Don't fight it, Romans. The truth will always prevail. All your ministers taught you will come to naught, but the Word of God endures forever.
Your angel Manalo lied to you. I am not blaming you.
But God, our loving God, is calling you tenderly to put your trust in His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth. Put your trust in man and you will be disappointed.
Romans, read the Bible and don't question it. Don't be like your ministers saying: "How can it be? This is not right, must be wrong translation!" Don't be like them, filled with unbelief. Let the Bible speak and we listen to what God reveals to us. Remember, His ways are not our ways.
Romans, once again, I beg you to accept in your heart our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Creator of heaven and earth, Lord of lords, King of kings, the Author of life, Son of God, Son of Man, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Lamb of God, the Word of God, the Bright and Morning Star, the Fairest of Ten Thousand, our Lord and our God.
To all readers of this board who trust in Christ Jesus, Creator of heaven and earth, please pray that our friend Romans will come to know the truth.